July 17, 2007

Several SLer's got together to discuss Andrew Keen's Book --
THE CULT OF THE AMATEUR

Enjoy their chat --
[17:59] Existential Paine: We're here for the first ever Book Chat on The Cult of the Amateur
[17:59] You: wow 2 just started
[18:00] You: so a bit distracted for just a moment
[18:00] Tooka Mulligan: Hit it off Ryan I'm relogging
[18:00] Etdoc Sungsoo: I'm also with wow2.o
[18:00] Etdoc Sungsoo: listening
[18:00] Existential Paine: Hopefully, this isn't our last and it grows from here
[18:00] Etdoc Sungsoo: i'm impressed Macsmom
[18:00] Existential Paine: How many of you have read or are reading Keen's book?
[18:00] Tooka Mulligan is Offline
[18:00] Thr33R1ng Binder: Not me, yet. I plan to, though.
[18:00] Sadie Merlin: I just got it, so have only read first few pages
[18:00] Etdoc Sungsoo: haven't read any yet
[18:00] Teacher Spitteler is Online
[18:00] tansmom Kidd: just got it
[18:01] Existential Paine: Great!
[18:01] North Lamar is Online
[18:01] Existential Paine: It is an excellent read that challenges a lot of what many ed techs have come to believe
[18:01] Existential Paine: Let me just kick this off with a little quote that sums this up and we'll see what y'all think
[18:02] Thr33R1ng Binder: How's that?
[18:02] Midge Sands is Online
[18:03] Existential Paine: "The Moral fabric of our society is being unraveled by Web 2.0. It seduces us into acting on our most deviant instincts and allows us to succum to our most destructive vices. And it is corroding and corrupting the values we share as a nation"
[18:03] You: my wow are over
[18:04] Thr33R1ng Binder: To which devices do you think he is referring?
[18:04] Thr33R1ng Binder: Or 'vices' rather.
[18:04] Existential Paine: well, he points that Web 2.0 has created a mytopia
[18:05] Existential Paine: and that our selfish interests and desires dictate the information being spread globally
[18:05] Thr33R1ng Binder: I mean, web 2.0 and vices? Like sex, drugs, and rock and roll?
[18:05] Thr33R1ng Binder: Interesting.
[18:05] tansmom Kidd: so there is more lies than truth out there according to him?
[18:05] Existential Paine: In his eyes, the amateur is destroying writing, music, movies, etc
[18:05] Existential Paine: That would be true tansmom
[18:06] Existential Paine: That the amateur has created this world that evolves around them where truth and opinion are so blurred that no one knows what to believe
[18:07] Sadie Merlin: So according to him only professionals should express themselves, they are to be trusted?
[18:07] Existential Paine: He drills the flattening of culture as something that is blurring the lines "between audience and author, creator and consumer, expert and amateur" and that is bad
[18:07] Thr33R1ng Binder: YouTube, MySpace...
[18:07] Existential Paine: I think so Sadie
[18:07] Etdoc Sungsoo: at what point in time do amateurs become professionals>
[18:07] Etdoc Sungsoo: and what is the process?
[18:08] Existential Paine: Horizon Project, EdubloggerWorld, teachers allowing students to blog would be prime examples of what he would see as promoting the noble amateur
[18:08] Thr33R1ng Binder: When money is involved - is when I think...
[18:08] Note: Ken Umarov: Looks great Ryan, Thank You for the space. Look forward to having a better 2nd Life now :)
[18:08] tansmom Kidd: from a historical point of view, this has happened before I suppose..
[18:08] Existential Paine: I think that is a great point Etdoc
[18:08] Close Range: Midge Sands [22m]
[18:08] Existential Paine: Those are key questions that I think Keen is missing
[18:09] Chat Range: Claird Loon [12m]
[18:09] Long Range: Leesa Biedermann [94m]
[18:09] Existential Paine: I wonder if he has a point though
[18:09] Kittygloom Cassady is Offline
[18:09] Etdoc Sungsoo: if you can't practice as an amateur, you never become a professional
[18:09] Sadie Merlin: But those projects you refer to give others a voice and a chance to influence their peers and others
[18:09] Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
[18:09] Chat Range: Tooka Mulligan [2m]
[18:09] Etdoc Sungsoo: maybe that's one of the shifts that needs to happen - a loss of hierarchy
[18:09] Existential Paine: key word there practice Etdoc
[18:09] Tooka Mulligan is Online
[18:10] tansmom Kidd: before they have audience
[18:10] Existential Paine: should we practice in the open space of the web
[18:10] Etdoc Sungsoo: why can't the audience help in the process from amat to prof
[18:10] Tooka Mulligan: Okay, I'm back. on the Ubuntu side now...
[18:10] Close Range: Claird Loon [22m]
[18:10] Sadie Merlin: It also encourages them to take steps they may never have been given before
[18:11] Chat Range: Claird Loon [19m]
[18:11] Midge Sands is Offline
[18:11] Existential Paine: do you think it could hinder amateurs to have such a global audience?
[18:11] Thr33R1ng Binder: I think that the Internet is the purfect place to practice.
[18:11] Vegas Upshaw: ouch
[18:11] Existential Paine: In my PhD class, it was me against the world on this one
[18:11] Sadie Merlin: For so long an amateur had no adience
[18:12] Tooka Mulligan: Sorry I missed the beginning... where are we?
[18:12] Existential Paine: I'll send you the Chat Tooka
[18:12] Tooka Mulligan: great.
[18:12] tansmom Kidd: or is it
[18:12] tansmom Kidd: lol
[18:12] Tooka Mulligan: thx. technology's great
[18:12] Tooka Mulligan: Not at all...
[18:12] Thr33R1ng Binder is Offline
[18:12] You: oops
[18:12] You: are we okay
[18:13] Tooka Mulligan: I think that what Keen is missing is the process amateurs go through...
[18:13] Close Range: Claird Loon [37m]
[18:13] Tooka Mulligan: in becoming professionals or the learning experiences they go through.
[18:13] Long Range: IsabellaG Despres [54m]
[18:13] Etdoc Sungsoo: what makes a professional anyway?
[18:13] tansmom Kidd: but the process is important
[18:13] Teacher Spitteler is Offline
[18:13] You: I hope education does not make someone a professional
[18:14] Tooka Mulligan: I guess the fact that they get paid in some areas
[18:14] You: I hope experience does
[18:14] tansmom Kidd: maybe the global audience rushes the amatuer to the product
[18:14] Etdoc Sungsoo: in our culture, it seems that if enough people will buy your stuff ... voila, you're professional
[18:14] Etdoc Sungsoo: writers, musicians, athletes, etc.
[18:14] Close Range: IsabellaG Despres [28m]
[18:14] Chat Range: IsabellaG Despres [20m]
[18:14] Close Range: IsabellaG Despres [34m]
[18:14] Existential Paine: That is a good point Tooka but I wonder if he feels it would be better to place the amateur out of the web where the lines blur too much
[18:14] Tooka Mulligan: right. instantaneous professionals we should be weary of... but I think that they will go through learning too.
[18:15] Long Range: IsabellaG Despres [41m]
[18:15] Existential Paine: Would it be better to have them with an audience in isolation
[18:15] Tooka Mulligan: I'm sure he does feel that way, but look at what we are doing here.
[18:15] Existential Paine: For instance, would it be better to have students blog in school under Blackboard or using Blogger where it is out of the walled garden
[18:15] Tooka Mulligan: This wouldn't be possible.
[18:15] Existential Paine: Would he consider us professionals?
[18:16] tansmom Kidd: it depends upon your desired outcome
[18:16] Existential Paine: Are we adding to the knowledge base of our profession or regurgitating what has been said over and over?
[18:16] tansmom Kidd: there is more than one reason to have students blog
[18:16] Tooka Mulligan: It's all a process... you have students blog within closed walls as a way to scaffold
[18:16] Sadie Merlin: But if students stay in the walled garden so to speak how do they come to understand other opinions outside of their own geopgraphic area
[18:16] Existential Paine: Then why Blog Tooka?
[18:16] Tooka Mulligan: teach them the ethics and morality involved
[18:16] Existential Paine: Isn't that Tech for Tech sake?
[18:17] Tooka Mulligan: then move them on to the open spaces of the web.
[18:17] Existential Paine: Why not use Google Docs or the good ol' fashion journal
[18:17] tansmom Kidd: blogging is about connections
[18:17] Long Range: Leesa Biedermann [75m], Ceili Bailey [95m]
[18:17] Existential Paine: exactly tansmom
[18:17] Close Range: Leesa Biedermann [40m]
[18:17] Chat Range: Leesa Biedermann [15m]
[18:17] Tooka Mulligan: I think it depends on your outcomes here Existential
[18:17] tansmom Kidd: how can they connect if they are doing it insie walls
[18:17] Tooka Mulligan: right, Tansmom
[18:17] Existential Paine: that is my position tansmom
[18:18] Tooka Mulligan: Well, it was said that there are many reasons to blog.
[18:18] Sadie Merlin: I have this conversation all the time with our IT guys they want everyone inside no connections iwth the world
[18:18] Existential Paine: if blogging is connecting, should't students be outside the walled garden. Sadly, there are many teachers, administration, and parents that would say NO
[18:18] Tooka Mulligan: Sometimes I might want my students to build a learning community within the class (closed blog). Sometimes I might want it to be open to a larger community.
[18:18] Existential Paine: I'm in that fight now Sadie with IT and technologists
[18:18] tansmom Kidd: that is sad
[18:19] Sadie Merlin: It is hard to try to convince others to give up the control
[18:19] Existential Paine: Maybe it is a matter of semantics, but I don't believe there is such a thing as a closed blog
[18:19] Etdoc Sungsoo: but their reason for keeping us walled up is different from the book
[18:19] Sadie Merlin: Too if we don't teach them the ethics of blogging who is going to teach them
[18:19] tansmom Kidd: my parents blog with my students
[18:19] Tooka Mulligan: I think if we can prove that we (students) can make connections with each other it's one step closer to opening up the walls to the outside world.
[18:19] Etdoc Sungsoo: admin and IT keeps us walled to protect from the outside world
[18:19] Existential Paine: Sadie, I think that might be Keen's issue -- he doesn't want the elite to lose control
[18:20] Etdoc Sungsoo: Keen wants us separated because we're not good enough yet
[18:20] Sadie Merlin: IT guys do think htey are elite
[18:20] Etdoc Sungsoo: different focus
[18:20] Existential Paine: great point Etdoc
[18:20] Existential Paine: protect the elite status
[18:20] Etdoc Sungsoo: right
[18:20] Sadie Merlin: and he doesn't want many to have the opportunity either?
[18:20] Etdoc Sungsoo: how elitist is he - what are his professional credentials?
[18:21] Etdoc Sungsoo: or how elite is he
[18:21] Tooka Mulligan: I'm not sure if any of you have listened to the audiobook (which I am)... Keen sounds very bitter and seems to really put down the concept of an amateur
[18:21] Etdoc Sungsoo: why do you think he's go thtat attitude
[18:21] Etdoc Sungsoo: got
[18:22] Existential Paine: bio from his blog: http://ajkeen.com/tcota/about_andrew_keen.htm
[18:22] Sadie Merlin: In my situation it appears those I work with feel they have to hold things back
[18:22] Etdoc Sungsoo: if he's just spewing bitterness, maybe he's not as professional as he thinks he is :-)
[18:22] Tooka Mulligan: His voice is not very pleasant to listen to at times... as a blogger I feel put down. Like I shouldn't be there because I don't ahve an English degree.
[18:22] Existential Paine: he said in his intro it stemmed from O'Reilly's FOO
[18:23] Etdoc Sungsoo: intersting
[18:23] Tooka Mulligan: The way his FOO experience was described was as if he was an outsider to begin with.
[18:23] Existential Paine: as he was sitting at the FOO, this is what he felt "Everyone was simultaneously broadcasting themselves, but nobody was listening"
[18:23] Sadie Merlin: The internet has given so many the opportunity to connect as we are all doing tonight learning from one another
[18:24] Existential Paine: I find that really interesting because I've often wondered if I should stop blogging and focus more on reading and commenting
[18:24] tansmom Kidd: ok, don't throw stuff at me but
[18:24] Tooka Mulligan: I can't tell you how much I have listened (read) to other Edubloggers.
[18:24] tansmom Kidd: I don't totally disagree with that part
[18:24] Existential Paine: He went on to say it is Digital Darwinism
[18:24] tansmom Kidd: example- my principal wants every teacher to have a blog
[18:24] Existential Paine: no throwing allowed :-) hahahah
[18:25] tansmom Kidd: but will that make them a better teacher?
[18:25] Existential Paine: not if they are just writing
[18:25] Tooka Mulligan: I'm not sure that's the best idea, every teacher having a blog.
[18:25] Existential Paine: then a blog just becomes a reflective journal -- not that this isn't good, too
[18:25] tansmom Kidd: its like getting a smarboard just so you can say you have one in every classroom
[18:25] Sadie Merlin: I don't think it is,
[18:25] Existential Paine: Blogging is reading first and foremost -- the forgotten component
[18:25] Tooka Mulligan: I think that the principal should have one, maybe a few others, while the learners (teachers) read and comment.
[18:26] Existential Paine: right on with the smartboard
[18:26] tansmom Kidd: exactly what I have been saying
[18:26] Existential Paine: or a Community Blog
[18:26] Existential Paine: that keeps it all together and allows an evolving conversation
[18:26] Sadie Merlin: I tell the teachers in my district they should not ask their students to blog if they themselves don;t read any or know what it is about
[18:26] tansmom Kidd: that is what we have
[18:26] Tooka Mulligan: I have tried a community blog for our local instructional tech specialists and they still aren't on board.
[18:27] Tooka Mulligan: Right there Sadie
[18:27] Existential Paine: I wonder if that is because it feels more like a glorified discussion board
[18:27] Sadie Merlin: I read blogs for over a year before I tried my own
[18:27] Tooka Mulligan: I'm not saying the community blog is bad, it's wonderful.. Just have a lot of work to do here.
[18:27] Etdoc Sungsoo: I still read more than I post
[18:27] Sadie Merlin: and I am still not sure I have enough to say
[18:27] Existential Paine: same here Sadie
[18:27] Etdoc Sungsoo: right, that's what I think, Sadie
[18:27] Tooka Mulligan: ditto sadie
[18:27] tansmom Kidd: yeah, I only have one for my students
[18:28] Sadie Merlin: But I like it and will keep trying it even if no one comments
[18:28] Existential Paine: Keen might like that Etdoc
[18:28] Etdoc Sungsoo: I have my undergrads read and comment
[18:28] Existential Paine: The fact that you aren't sure so you are more selective in what you post
[18:28] Tooka Mulligan: I dont think we need to write a ton. Reading and commenting might be considered blogging to most teachers... I'd be okay with that.
[18:28] Etdoc Sungsoo: I don't require them to come up with their own stuff
[18:28] LillyoftheSea Starr is Online
[18:28] Sadie Merlin: 'I would too Tooka
[18:28] Existential Paine: I have over 140 blogs in my aggregator
[18:28] Sadie Merlin: how do you keep up
[18:29] Tooka Mulligan: I think that maybe what Keen was sort of getting at... less monkeys and penguins
[18:29] tansmom Kidd: yikes!
[18:29] Long Range: LillyoftheSea Starr [95m]
[18:29] Existential Paine: skim baby skim!
[18:29] Etdoc Sungsoo: me to 166, i saw on my bloglines today
[18:29] Tooka Mulligan: Trying to stay under 100.. I have 92
[18:29] Leesa Biedermann is Offline
[18:29] Existential Paine: I beg, pleas with people to use subject lines that are clear as to what the post is about
[18:29] tansmom Kidd: Keen would have a heyday with twitter I am sure
[18:29] Etdoc Sungsoo: but i don't read all of htem every day - maybe 10
[18:29] Existential Paine: I wonder if he would actually like that
[18:29] Etdoc Sungsoo: twitter is trippy
[18:30] Tooka Mulligan: but Web2.0 tools aren't just blogs... I subscribe to searches on relevant and timely info on several interests
[18:30] Etdoc Sungsoo: i don't think he would see the point
[18:30] Existential Paine: It is somewhat controlled banter
[18:30] Etdoc Sungsoo: some times i don't :-)
[18:30] Tooka Mulligan: Wired has a great article about Twitter.
[18:30] Close Range: LillyoftheSea Starr [25m]
[18:30] Chat Range: LillyoftheSea Starr [18m]
[18:30] Etdoc Sungsoo: Hi Alice, have a seat :-)
[18:30] Sadie Merlin: I don't know enough ppl to twitter
[18:30] tansmom Kidd: yeah, do I need to know that Fryer is on a beer tour?
[18:31] tansmom Kidd: lol
[18:31] Tooka Mulligan: LOL
[18:31] LillyoftheSea Starr: Thank you.. I will when I get over the fence!
[18:31] Tooka Mulligan: Jealous?
[18:31] Close Range: LillyoftheSea Starr [24m]
[18:31] Etdoc Sungsoo: funny
[18:31] Chat Range: LillyoftheSea Starr [6m]
[18:31] Existential Paine: As I've read Keen's book, it seems to me he has valid points and for everything he sees as a negative, I can counter with a positive
[18:31] Etdoc Sungsoo: fly higher
[18:31] Close Range: LillyoftheSea Starr [29m]
[18:31] Chat Range: LillyoftheSea Starr [17m]
[18:31] Existential Paine: hahaha
[18:31] Existential Paine: sorry Lilly
[18:31] Existential Paine: the fence is high
[18:31] LillyoftheSea Starr: I really can't get past the fence!!!
[18:31] Tooka Mulligan: I think we sit in a small sector here. We are of the school that we need to teach how to use the tools correctly.
[18:31] Etdoc Sungsoo: go up up up
[18:32] tansmom Kidd: just click on a sphere to sit
[18:32] LillyoftheSea Starr: trying
[18:32] Etdoc Sungsoo: Lilly
[18:32] tansmom Kidd: thats what I do
[18:32] Tooka Mulligan: Keen I think would agree that this needs to happen
[18:32] Sadie Merlin: I think we do need to teach that
[18:32] Etdoc Sungsoo: there you go
[18:32] Etdoc Sungsoo: yea!
[18:32] LillyoftheSea Starr: Whew! Thanks Ex that was weird
[18:32] Existential Paine: right on Tooka
[18:32] Existential Paine: great, great point
[18:32] LillyoftheSea Starr: Still in my party gear
[18:32] Tooka Mulligan: Absolutely Sadie, that's what I"m saying... that's why you might ahve to scaffold with admins, teachers and students.
[18:33] Existential Paine: His book is a gold mine for defending Web 2.0 in schools
[18:33] Existential Paine: np
[18:33] tansmom Kidd: wait, I missed it we need to teach what?
[18:33] Sadie Merlin: Yes I think you do Tooka,
[18:33] Tooka Mulligan: Right, Existential but I fear that the book might scare most off
[18:33] Existential Paine: Keen constantly refers to people not having the literacy skills to handle the web today
[18:33] Existential Paine: That is why it is critical that schools teach those 21st Century Skills that ISTE developed
[18:34] tansmom Kidd: so teaching students to evaluate web content?
[18:34] Existential Paine: I'd love it to be a professional read in my school
[18:34] Tooka Mulligan: Once we see through his generalizations and stereotypes I think we can relate to him.
[18:34] Existential Paine: it would show that we aren't afraid to hear oppositions
[18:34] Tooka Mulligan: Ditto Existential.
[18:35] Sadie Merlin: teach students to use the tools correctly tansomom
[18:35] Existential Paine: http://blaugh.com/2007/07/09/think-before-you-blog/
[18:35] Tooka Mulligan: That's one of my goals. Seems arrogant, but I look at this community and know what's happening... I need to bring this to my teachers, students and admins
[18:35] Etdoc Sungsoo: good one EX
[18:35] Sadie Merlin: Will they listen tooka
[18:36] Sadie Merlin: I need to do the same thing
[18:36] Etdoc Sungsoo: it seems to me that Keen's attitude is a reaction similar to the Academy (university)
[18:36] Tooka Mulligan: Well I'm in a regional cooperative (meaning I serve 10 school districts)
[18:36] Etdoc Sungsoo: Only the best of the best move up the hierarchy
[18:36] Sadie Merlin: See for me it is my one district
[18:36] Tooka Mulligan: That's tough, but yes I think they will. We have some good leadership around the area and more coming in
[18:36] Existential Paine: What would be awesome is to use a wiki and discussion board to facilitate that discussions Tooka :-)
[18:36] Existential Paine: I love irony
[18:36] Sadie Merlin: I have done presentations to the admin
[18:37] Tooka Mulligan: I'm game.
[18:37] Existential Paine: I'd get my schools involved!
[18:37] Sadie Merlin: and they don't seem to understand why they would move from their web page to a blog
[18:37] tansmom Kidd: good idea ex
[18:37] Sadie Merlin: I have a couple of teachers who use web 2.0 well
[18:37] Tooka Mulligan: We have to remember that teachers are reluctant to open themselves up to the community, let alone parents.
[18:38] Existential Paine: it is a pedagogical change Sadie
[18:38] Sadie Merlin: and when their pricipals come to observe they have no idea what they are doing
[18:38] Teacher Spitteler is Online
[18:38] Existential Paine: I have teachers using web 2.0 tools but they don't have a better approach to instruction
[18:38] Sadie Merlin: I know and for me as an instructional tech spec I have no clout
[18:38] Tooka Mulligan: I'd start with a small learning community within a grade level or department then work my way to them having a blog (professionally) and then introduce it to students.
[18:38] LillyoftheSea Starr: Hear hear
[18:38] LillyoftheSea Starr: I am teaching a tech class now so hard to het themto look at their practice
[18:38] Sadie Merlin: good idea Tooka, thanks
[18:39] Tooka Mulligan: I'm lovin' this.
[18:39] Tooka Mulligan: Thanks to youall.
[18:39] LillyoftheSea Starr: Cool~
[18:39] Existential Paine: me, too, Tooka
[18:39] Sadie Merlin: I had thought of starting a DI wiki for a building so all could contribute in a building to each other
[18:40] Sadie Merlin: As a way to get them to understand how to use the tool and see the value of collaboration that way
[18:41] tansmom Kidd: hmm, a wiki would be good
[18:41] Thr33R1ng Binder is Online
[18:41] Chat Range: Thr33R1ng Binder [1m]
[18:41] Tooka Mulligan is Offline
[18:41] tansmom Kidd: we have a blog as a building but the wiki might give more ownership
[18:41] Thr33R1ng Binder: Back. Sorry.
[18:41] Existential Paine: For many, I think a wiki is a bit more approachable than a blog
[18:41] Sadie Merlin: I do too
[18:41] tansmom Kidd: yes, ppl are afraid to author on the blog
[18:41] Sadie Merlin: Because they are expected to share
[18:42] Existential Paine: I know I was... well, still am
[18:42] Sadie Merlin: and it is less threatening
[18:42] Sadie Merlin: Me too Ex
[18:42] Existential Paine: I have the worst butterflies when I blog for Tech & Learning
[18:42] Sadie Merlin: You do a great job
[18:42] Existential Paine: not to mention my own blog
[18:42] Existential Paine: I'll say this
[18:42] Thr33R1ng Binder: You shouldn't, Ex. You write well.
[18:43] Existential Paine: As a former high school English teacher, I've never faced more challenging writing
[18:43] LillyoftheSea Starr: It's hard to write and
[18:43] LillyoftheSea Starr: remember that we are supposed to always be "right" as teachers!
[18:43] Existential Paine: I lost that concept along time ago ;-)
[18:43] Thr33R1ng Binder: Kids work far harder on content that will be published to a blog rather than a "normal" assignment.
[18:43] Sadie Merlin: Well as the school year starts and I go forward with the wiki school for collaboration I will let you all know how it goes
[18:43] LillyoftheSea Starr: So, it's a shift
[18:43] Existential Paine: What do you think about Web 2.0 causing a lost of creativity as Keen implies?
[18:43] LillyoftheSea Starr: Tes 331!
[18:43] LillyoftheSea Starr: yes 331
[18:44] Thr33R1ng Binder: I think he's off his rocker.
[18:44] Etdoc Sungsoo: lol
[18:44] LillyoftheSea Starr: me too
[18:44] Sadie Merlin: I don't think that is so
[18:44] Existential Paine: Yeah, going public is key -- that is why I taught under the philosophy of CyberEnglish
[18:44] tansmom Kidd: how can that be?
[18:44] Thr33R1ng Binder: If anything, it's created an INCREASE in creativity.
[18:44] Thr33R1ng Binder: 65,000 YouTube video uploads per DAY?
[18:44] Existential Paine: Ah.. quality or quantity?
[18:44] Thr33R1ng Binder: That's creativity. Maybe not great creativity, but we're getting there.
[18:44] tansmom Kidd: well, quality is questionable on you tube
[18:44] Sadie Merlin: I find students much more critical of their work if is is going to be posted
[18:44] tansmom Kidd: but it is a voice
[18:45] Etdoc Sungsoo: how does he define creativity?
[18:45] Existential Paine: original thought seems to be the undertone though never really defined
[18:45] tansmom Kidd: the hardest thing to do is get students to communicate ideas in any form
[18:45] Sadie Merlin: yes it is voice tansmom one they did not have before
[18:45] tansmom Kidd: adults are even worse
[18:45] Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
[18:46] Tooka Mulligan is Online
[18:46] tansmom Kidd: my kids don't sit there and agonize over a blog post like I do
[18:46] Existential Paine: focuses more on stifling creativity and encouraging intellectual propery theft and mashups
[18:46] Existential Paine: Welcome back Tooka
[18:46] Tooka Mulligan: I'm on the Dark side now (Windows XP) LOL
[18:47] tansmom Kidd: when they grow up to be like you EX, they won't have butterflies when they blog:)
[18:47] Sign with stone base and flood lights mod/copy -=SSCamp=-: One moment please...
[18:47] Existential Paine: hahaha
[18:48] Chat Range: Maggie Marat [17m]
[18:48] Existential Paine: I'd rather speak publicly -- at least than I know when I'm making a fool out of myself in the moment :-)
[18:48] Close Range: Maggie Marat [27m]
[18:48] Chat Range: Maggie Marat [13m]
[18:48] Existential Paine: I think a prime example of what he might consider stifling creativity is Karl Fisch's video Did you know
[18:48] North Lamar is Offline
[18:48] Thr33R1ng Binder: What do you mean?
[18:49] Sadie Merlin: How would that be
[18:49] Existential Paine: How many mashups were there?
[18:49] Thr33R1ng Binder: Lots.
[18:49] Thr33R1ng Binder: Oh, when. Now or earlier?
[18:49] Close Range: Maggie Marat [27m]
[18:49] tansmom Kidd: really true tho, that these kids who blog now are going to be so much more equipped to communicate/collaborate/express ideas
[18:49] Existential Paine: Did that add anything or just recreate what was already in place
[18:50] Sadie Merlin: I agree tansmom
[18:50] tansmom Kidd: its more about the process than the product
[18:50] Sadie Merlin: recreated
[18:50] Existential Paine: in other words, would time have been better spent discussing that piece than recreating it
[18:50] Tooka Mulligan: I think people but it in context of their situation. I had a superintendent use it at a Tech Summit
[18:50] Existential Paine: Use Fisch's?
[18:50] Sadie Merlin: I used it for my administration
[18:50] Tooka Mulligan: parts of it.
[18:51] Thr33R1ng Binder: I think that for the person that created the mashup, it was very worthwhile. Perhaps they used the creation of the mashup as their way to internalize what Karl was saying.
[18:51] Tooka Mulligan: I showed it in it's original form last Oct for our ITS group.
[18:51] Existential Paine: than why republish it?
[18:51] Existential Paine: Is that an insult to Fisch?
[18:51] Existential Paine: (I'm play devil's advocate)
[18:51] Thr33R1ng Binder: Absolutely not. It's a compliment. IMHO.
[18:51] Tooka Mulligan: Great point Drapes
[18:52] tansmom Kidd: learning is doing right?
[18:52] tansmom Kidd: internalizing
[18:52] Tooka Mulligan: I don't think it's an insult at all
[18:52] Thr33R1ng Binder: That's how I knew that my video had finally made it "big" - when someone had duplicated it on TeacherTube.
[18:52] Existential Paine: But aren't those mashed up pieces cluttering the web -- taking away from the authentic voice of Fisch?
[18:52] Sadie Merlin: or adding to
[18:52] Tooka Mulligan: Somehow those videos struck a chord with those that are mashing them up
[18:52] Tooka Mulligan: That's good.
[18:53] Sadie Merlin: in the sherr number of mashups
[18:53] Tooka Mulligan: Getting people to think different.
[18:53] Thr33R1ng Binder: No. We all know that Fisch was first. I think all of this creativity is healthy.
[18:53] Existential Paine: not so fast
[18:53] Existential Paine: what award did he have bipassed to him?
[18:53] Existential Paine: Does anyone remember?
[18:53] Sadie Merlin: I don't know
[18:54] Existential Paine: They gave it to a mashup only to realize that Fisch originated it so they created a new award
[18:54] Tooka Mulligan: idk
[18:54] Existential Paine: I'll have to dig through Vicki Davis' blog to find it
[18:54] Tooka Mulligan: I thought he gave permission for that.
[18:54] Thr33R1ng Binder: Still, Karl's ok with that. Scott McCloud?
[18:54] Thr33R1ng Binder: Karl never did it for any credit.
[18:54] Existential Paine: Oh, I'm sure he did
[18:55] Existential Paine: I'm not saying that but put it in a different context
[18:55] Tooka Mulligan: right, he did it in the context of his facutly and staff
[18:55] Existential Paine: What about others that might be doing it for credit or a living
[18:55] Tooka Mulligan: That's what we are missing here.. the individual populations of our schools
[18:55] North Lamar is Online
[18:55] Tooka Mulligan: We need to address where our teachers are now.
[18:55] Existential Paine: in what way Tooka?
[18:55] Thr33R1ng Binder: At first, it makes you mad. But then you think about YOUR original motives.
[18:56] Tooka Mulligan: I think it's the communities responsibilty to keep everyone honest whehter they are doing it for money or for learning
[18:56] Existential Paine: Self-policing
[18:56] Thr33R1ng Binder: Yeah. Unfortunately, the community isn't often smart.
[18:57] Existential Paine: hmm...
[18:57] Thr33R1ng Binder: The consumer is quite ignorant.
[18:57] Tooka Mulligan: I might call my supervisor on something that is not true on his blog (if I had a super at this point LOL)
[18:57] Sadie Merlin: brb
[18:57] Thr33R1ng Binder: Especially desparate teachers, if I may say so. I'm a teacher myself. :)
[18:57] Existential Paine: in what ways DD?
[18:58] Tooka Mulligan: I"m assuming we are all teachers , is this true?
[18:58] Thr33R1ng Binder: Teachers, at least in my district, are so tired. They grasp for easy to deliver content, notwithstanding the source.
[18:59] tansmom Kidd is Offline
[18:59] Existential Paine: gotcha
[18:59] Existential Paine: I would agree
[18:59] Tooka Mulligan: I think that's true here in NY DD
[18:59] Thr33R1ng Binder: They usually don't worry about finding the original source. Especially if something "good" was sent to them via email.
[18:59] Existential Paine: yep -- time is always against teachers
[18:59] Existential Paine: I hope you all know I'm playing Devil's advocate on some of these points :-)
[18:59] Thr33R1ng Binder: Riiiight.
[18:59] Thr33R1ng Binder: :)
[18:59] Tooka Mulligan: Absolutely Ex
[18:59] Existential Paine: haahhahaa
[18:59] Tooka Mulligan: Thanks
[18:59] Thr33R1ng Binder: Me too.
[19:00] Tooka Mulligan: So where is Keen with education?
[19:00] Existential Paine: The Fisch thing I pulled from a point where he argued against this quote (a quote I support)
[19:00] Existential Paine: Duffy argues that the broader the participation in design, the more enthusiasm and demand for great design"
[19:01] Existential Paine: Keen says that this lessens real innovation
[19:01] Existential Paine: similar to the Fisch mashups
[19:01] Tooka Mulligan: I'm not sure.
[19:01] Existential Paine: A lot of food for thought -- I'm exhausted!
[19:01] Existential Paine: My mind is really spinning here
[19:02] Tooka Mulligan: at any one point in time this might be true, but what about the process we go through towards innovation
[19:02] Thr33R1ng Binder: Me too. Sorry, but I've got to run. Chat with Vicki about EBW.
[19:02] Thr33R1ng Binder: See you around. Thanks for the great chat.
[19:02] Tooka Mulligan: Thanks for stopping by Drapes
[19:02] Thr33R1ng Binder: Great to be here. I love this!
[19:02] Tooka Mulligan: Me too
[19:02] Existential Paine: Well, they say all great literature stems from mythology :-)
[19:02] Existential Paine: See ya DD
[19:03] Thr33R1ng Binder is Offline
[19:03] Existential Paine: BTW, 40 people can be in this house at once
[19:03] Tooka Mulligan: later Drapes
[19:03] Existential Paine: Well all, I'm out too
[19:03] Sadie Merlin: bye 33ring
[19:03] Existential Paine: I hope everyone enjoyed this experience and I hope we can do it again
[19:03] Sadie Merlin: this was great thanks Ex
[19:03] Sadie Merlin: Nice meeting everyone
[19:04] Tooka Mulligan: bye sadie
[19:04] Sadie Merlin: I would like to do this again
[19:04] Existential Paine: any other books we should have?
[19:04] Tooka Mulligan: Five Minds!
[19:04] Existential Paine: I had a couple of recommendations come across
[19:04] You: sighs -- it is over???
[19:04] Existential Paine: yep and The World is Flat
[19:04] Sadie Merlin: what are they Ex
[19:04] Existential Paine: Five Minds by Gardner
[19:05] Existential Paine: and The World is Flat Friedman
[19:05] tansmom Kidd is Online
[19:05] Existential Paine: IMHO, it was awesome Mac!
[19:05] North Lamar is Offline
[19:05] Existential Paine: The conversations were brillant
[19:05] You: I shall read the chat
[19:05] You: and we will post it???
[19:05] tansmom Kidd: sorry I crashed at the end
[19:05] Etdoc Sungsoo: I caught some of it - will have to read the chat
[19:05] Existential Paine: well, Keen might disagree if we put it on the wiki or blog about it :-)
[19:05] Etdoc Sungsoo: and the book :-0
[19:05] Etdoc Sungsoo: :-)
[19:05] Existential Paine: hahaha
[19:06] Tooka Mulligan: Le'ts post a comment on his blog with a link to it!
[19:06] Etdoc Sungsoo: this might be a good book for one of my doc classes
[19:06] Existential Paine: I'm going to reread it after Walden work of course ;-)
[19:06] Etdoc Sungsoo: good idea
[19:06] Existential Paine: I think so Etdoc
[19:06] Existential Paine: Yes!
[19:07] Existential Paine: Show him the transcripts from tonight :-)
[19:07] Etdoc Sungsoo: really
[19:07] Tooka Mulligan: Bunch of Amateurs
[19:07] Existential Paine: hahahha
[19:07] Tooka Mulligan: Web2.0 at it's finest.
[19:07] You: I am grabbing the chat
[19:07] Sadie Merlin: Absolutely
[19:07] Existential Paine: Are you putting it up Mac or do you want me to do it?
[19:07] Etdoc Sungsoo: You're offline - Macsmom
[19:08] Etdoc Sungsoo: when i try to IM you
[19:08] You: who ever gets there first
[19:08] tansmom Kidd: ready, set , GO!
[19:08] Tooka Mulligan: Hehe, thanks Mac and Ex you've been great
[19:08] Existential Paine: You will because I always cut out the Twitter and such :-)
[19:08] tansmom Kidd: thanks, this was great
[19:08] Existential Paine: I'm too tired from all this thinking to try to be Speedy over there ;-)
[19:08] Sadie Merlin: This has been terrific!
[19:09] Existential Paine: Should we have more of these?
[19:09] tansmom Kidd: oh yes!
[19:09] You: hmmmmhmmmm I am not on??
[19:09] Existential Paine: an hour was a great lenth
[19:09] Existential Paine: length
[19:09] Sadie Merlin: Yes I would love to have more of these
[19:09] tansmom Kidd: the more focused conversations are much more justifiable:)
[19:09] LillyoftheSea Starr: I would love to have more of theses